City council faces £1 billion housing bill

“It's amazing how quickly your 'boredom' relented stokepotter; I do tend to have that effect on people though. Was your monotony alleviated by the fact that deep down you know that I'm right when I say that you can't and won't provide an answer to my test, or was it the realisation that until you do answer it, your whole argument about 'deprived' and 'affluent' areas is fatally undermined?

And just as a reminder, here is the incredibly simple question again; if you were given a choice, where would you prefer to live stokepotter; Bentilee or Lightwood / Trentham?

Answer that question and we just might be able to move on stokepotter. But if you don't, then your refusal to do so will continue to render your argument null and void, and as such, it will still be one-nil to the Tut.

And to Tabazan, I do have a very serious side my friend, and every now and then I like to let it out for a bit of fresh air. Thanks for the encouragement though.”

“OH KIngtut. I just HAD to respond despite my earlier decision to leave your blathering nonsense of an assertion as it is totally boring. Where I choose to live is of absolutely no bearing on the topic at all. The areas you mention are NOT deprived. How can they be? They have all the facilities and monies showered upon them. They have for many years and it has made no difference and will continue to be the case for those people in the areas who will not get off their backsides.

Definition of 'deprived from the Oxford dictionary - suffering a severe and damaging lack of basic material and cultural benefits:

Note - these are all things, which are showered in abundance in these areas. It is the attitude and aspirations of some of the people there which is totally lacking. Far easier for those in the minority in those areas to sit back and let those who have been inspired and have aspirations to support them.

The article I wrote in answer to your question on what would happen if people were to swop areas demonstrates the difference in people's ATTITUDE between the areas of Trentham / Lightwood and those areas you wrongly feel are 'deprived'. Sadly (for you) you do not seem able to comprehend the difference which is why if we do cross swords again, I will continue to win the argument. You make it SO very easy. Back to your tomb and the expensive material things that were found around you - for sure you are not deprived.”

“And you STILL haven't told me where, if you were given a choice, you would prefer to live stokepotter; Bentilee or Lightwood / Trentham. It's a very, very simple question, and you have flatly refused to answer it on every single occasion. Therefore, the only conclusion I can draw from your refusal to reply is that you know that the response you would have to give would completely undermine your original assertion that Lightwood and Trentham are – in your very own words – 'deprived' areas.

So long for now stokepotter; if our swords do cross again then I sincerely hope that the debate will be as one sided in my favour as this discussion has been.”

“KIngtut, I am totally bored with your missives. The point is that you cannot call areas like Bentilee, Newstead etc 'deprived'. They are not. They have all the facilities and opportunities showered upon them and still some people are not satisfied or do not make the best of their opportunities.

Likewise you cannot call areas like Trentham and Lightwood affluent as they too have their share of single parent families, people on low incomes, unemployed youngsters etc. The difference is they do not keep moaning on about their situation - they just get on with life. It is possibly because they do not moan publicly that they do not dispel the myth and hence why they do not get the facilities of your so called 'deprive areas' lavished upon them.

I know the areas labelled 'deprived' very well believe me, but I get back to my basic point that if you keep telling someone they are 'deprived', then ultimately they will believe it and stop trying - and why not because the more they complain, the more they are given. Greed and envy is unfortunately part of human nature for some people. There are a lot of good people in these areas, they work hard and strive to do better for themselves and their families and these I exclude from the comments. I am sure they do not consider themselves to be deprived.

As a youngster I was taught at school the basic ethos of Inspiration and Aspiration. This seems to now be missing from some of the current generation(s) in the so wrongly labelled 'deprived areas'.

PS given your sign-in title I would think you reside in a palace.

Signing off now from this strand. Until we cross swords again.”

“@King Tut

I can hardly believe my eyes Tut; you have made three comments on this story and you have been serious in every one of them. And here's another shocker… I actually agree with you!

Very well said.”

“Just a few technicalities to begin with stokepotter;

The term 'deprived' that for some reason you are attributing to me was used by yourself before I made my first post. Here's your quote;

"Just go around these so called 'deprived' council estates and the 'affluent' areas and see the difference. E.g Bentilee…"

Therefore, at least in the context of our discussion, the terminology belongs to you.

Also, a quick word about the new Academy School that is currently being built in Bentilee. I'm sure that when it's completed it will be a good facility, but it's worth remembering that it's replacing three secondary schools, and – using your logic – it will be depriving communities such as Eaton Park, Bucknall and Longton of much needed community services. So it could be argued that rather than improving the infrastructure of the city, the new Academy may actually be contributing to a worsening situation.

But let's move on to the hub of the issue. You typed all those words stokepotter, but you still didn't provide an answer to the question that 'the test' poses. And we both know that the reason you didn't give an answer is that, despite all your protestations and anecdotal 'evidence' to the contrary, you wouldn't want to move to Bentilee. And the reason why you wouldn't want to live in Bentilee is because where you are living at the moment will be a much nicer area to live in.

You may not have access to the facilities that the good folk of Bentilee are afforded, but you will have worked out that the positives of living where you are at the moment outweigh the negatives that living in Bentilee would invariably incur. And if that wasn't the case, you would already be living in Bentilee, and we wouldn't be having this debate.

So the fact remains the same stokepotter; for all the money that is invested in areas like Bentilee and Newstead, and for all the amenities that you talk about, you still wouldn't want to live in those places. But if you did ever move to Bentilee, I can't help wondering how long it would be before you 'screamed' for a return to your current location? Not long, I reckon.

As you rightly say, the grass is always greener…”

“i can only imagine that stokiemart is one of those socialist, lazy types living off the government dole with that remark. Council houses are a thing of the past and need to go to make people more responsible for themselves instead of relying on the bloody government all the time,
No wonder this country is in such a mess”

“So king tut,
Regarding you "test".
If people living in Trentham or Lightwood swopped with for example someone living in Bentilee Newstead, or other areas you term 'deprived' what would they do?
Lets start with your so called 'affluent areas (Trentham or Lightwood) moving to a 'deprived' area in your terminology.
1. Within 5 years the houses and gardens would be fully sorted out. They would not wait for Kier to swop a tap washer or right a garden fence. They would JUST DO IT themselves. They have a positive can do attitude. That is just what these people do.
2. House and garden sizes. Mega in comparison to what they were used to. No tiny bedrooms here; just acres of space both inside and out.
3. The doctors' surgeries would be almost empty. Only those requiring proper medical treatment would attend.
4. Education. Their children would be able to attend schools that have all the facilities, not ones that were built many years ago and which the Council has refused to allocate sufficient resources. E,g, A new Acadamy in Bentilee: a nice primary school in Newstead with lots of nice outdoor equipment; A large 'Surestart' centre with equipment worth thousands staffed by well paid council employees. Heaven!!
5. Crime. Well that is down to the families to sort out and given the way that the children have been used to in their previous areas, this would reduce significantly. Anyway with plenty to do, youngsters would be spoilt for choice.
6. Employment. Many of the people are used to going out and finding work either locally or they get up at the crack of dawn to commute to areas like Birmingham or Manchester, getting home late in the evening. This would not change. Again it is down to a' can do' attitude.
7. Rents - much lower than the average mortgage which the people from the so called 'affluent' areas have been paying. Money in the bank here for ex Trentham or Lightwood people.
8. Rates. Again much lower due to lower house prices and getting lots of facilities thrown in too. Wow !!!

Now lets look at the reverse. Moving from your so called 'deprived' area to an 'affluent' area in your terminology - not mine.
1. Where would I go to pay my rent / mortgage. Well if I am elderly and cannot drive I would have to wait for a bus that can be hourly. NO local centre for me to pay my dues.
2. I like to read. Whoops, only place in Trentham is the old wooden shack near the High School.
I could use the Internet I suppose, but wait fast broadband does not exist in Trentham. Max
speed 3 meg and the children are not given free laptops by the authority to use anyway.
3. Education. Old schools with lack of facilities. No comparison here.
4. Houses. Well if it is one you own - like some people do on Bentilee and Newstead, you have to pay for your own repairs or do it yourself. Need a new roof; solar panels; central heating needs replacing? No kind Council to sort it out for you. See your bank manager.
5. Rates. Well you now live in an 'affluent' area so you will pay through the nose and get little in return.
6. Child care. No super duper Surestart centre here. Look after the kids yourself or send them to a private nursery and pay the fees yourself.
7. Medical care. Wait in doctors' cramped small waiting rooms as they are not used to such large groups of people wanting attention.
8. Need to see the Council - catch a bus or walk if you do not have you own transport as there is no handy Council centre on either Trentham or Lightwood.
9. Crime. Nothing here in the 'affluent areas' for the young to do so I guess this would increase.
10. Employment. Out of bed before sunrise and off to the big cities - get back late so only thing to do is to go to bed

Yes life sure is hard. How long before these so called 'deprived' people scream to return back to their previous homes and enjoy all the facilities . Not long I reckon. The grass is always greener on the other side until you find out what it entails.

PS. I grew up in Blurton.”

“A quote from stokepotter

"If you keep telling people they are deprived as they do for the areas you name like Bentilee, Abbey Hulton, Newstead, etc, then they will BELIEVE it and do little to help themselves."

I would agree with the general point that you have made there stokepotter. But with your focus fixed firmly on the Bentilee Neighbourhood Centre, you are missing a wider truth. The quality of amenities and the relative investment in an area are just two of many factors that determine whether an area is deprived or not; crime, education, employment, property prices, health and aspiration have also to be considered when making a comparison between a disadvantaged and a privileged location. In short, it's not the amount of money that is spent on a particular area that alleviates deprivation, and that is why Bentilee is still a deprived area in relation to places like Trentham and Lightwood.

But just in case you still have any doubts, refer to the test that I mentioned in my previous post and apply it to yourself. Given a choice between a house in Bentilee, or a house in Lightwood / Trentham, then which area would you opt for? I know for a fact that I would not actively choose Bentillee as a place to live, and I suspect that – even with it's excellent neighbourhood centre – you wouldn't choose to live in Bentilee either.

And that's the real difference between a deprived and a privileged area.”

“Dear KingTut,
If you keep telling people they are deprived as they do for the areas you name like Bentilee, Abbey Hulton, Newstead, etc, then they will BELIEVE it and do little to help themselves. You only have to look at the many MILLIONS that have been spent on Bentilee alone to know that they are certainly NOT deprived.

I went to the Bentilee Neighbourhood centre a few weeks ago and was amazed to see how little use was being made of the wonderful amenities there EXCEPT the doctors surgeries waiting areas which were both very full - now I wonder what some of the people were doing there?
The dentistry and Podiatry areas - both empty. Obviously no one had problems with their teeth or feet that day.

Over to the Council side of the £8 million building. I waited there for some time. The expensively set out library. Only 1 customer - less than the number of staff working there! the fabulous IT suite - only person there was a lady waiting to interview a volunteer! None of the computers were being used. More people were in the Council one stop shop to be fair but it was not exactly busy.

The previous time I went to the Neighbourhood Centre to see how it was being used - my
experience was similar. Coincidence - sadly I don't really think so.

As I stated in my earlier missive - the really deprived areas are the likes of Trentham and Lightwood. Few amenities for the adults and children there. For example, a tiny old wooden hut for a Library in Trentham; What was a playgroup in the Methodist chapel has closed down just before Christmas due to falling numbers of children - perhaps their parents could not afford the small fees that were charged (no superdupa Surestart centre there with expensive staff paid for by the Council); Lightwood fares little better. These areas have handkerchiefs for a garden - but they are all kept smart. You don't see lots of litter in the streets - it is picked up and put into bins if any is seen on the roadways.

In summary, people there pay in lots and get little return for their rates other than the bins emptied. They do not spend all their time moaning - they just get on with living and trying to make ends meet, the same as SOME of the people in the so called ' deprived areas' you mention.”